landing-language.origins.md

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Samuel

](https://substack.com/profile/1691121-bonnitta-roy)

Aug 5, 2023Liked by Bonnitta Roy

it seems to me we do this almost everywhere. currenlty in am observing the familiy dynamics of my aunt, up here in the moutainhut and i start to see how our highly developed language allows us to serve justifications and get confused by them. lost in a web of free floating pointers and never really landing. but there is also so little capacity to land. or it seems so. i remember peterson once saying its just the overwhelm of the complexity that makes us kind of depressed. but maybe its the not -landing-language that we use that makes it complex.

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 5, 2023Author

Wow! You are really beginning to "see" it.... It's not that the "world" has to be complex. Arne Naas said the most complex thing in the world is nature, but that doesn't make you feel confused, walking along a stream.

Naas said that nature is "elegant complexity"

Language is a monstrosity past a certain lack of embodiment.

Everyone is swimming in language, unable to "land"

Like that movie with Tom Hanks -- where he can't leave the airport because his passport is not valid (his country dissolved during the time he was on the flight)

Everyone stuck going back and forth, looping in the "in-between" worlds.

Yes, you god it. The nor-landing language is not the only language we can speak. It's not the nature of mind to not-land. That is the kind of mind we have today.

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Samuel

Aug 14, 2023Liked by Bonnitta Roy

just watching verveake's "transcendent naturalism" series and he uses the concept of convergence or meta-argument to make his claims, i suppose, more "land" but is it really landing. if feels more like another mental move than a bodily landing. with our minds we have today something like that seems to be necessary to make, maybe for increasing trust but yea its not landing perse. i think the effects of landing-language would directly create trust.

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Samuel

Aug 14, 2023

often and also when i write here i experience an arousal that my psyche wants to represent as being inadequat or fraudulent. based on the regulairity and the fear i experience in it it seems to be quite a hard constrain. here for example want comes up is that i am just regurgitating what you already said bonni. this is also the reason why i find it difficult to speak in the live events. but it was a fresh insight and i want to engage. just had to put this out there.

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The Dude

Aug 8, 2023Liked by Bonnitta Roy

'Language is a monstrosity past a certain lack of embodiment.'

In Lacanian terms, 'discourse' (justification) is caught between an impossibility and an inability; I cannot (impossible) express the truth of my desire at the place of the other; the other cannot (inability) receive it.

A prior needs to be established, and made contact with, an anchor point, body, 'process', mutuality etc. to have a chance at a 'decent misunderstanding'.

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Samuel

that prior, you point to body, process, mutuality. so its the pre-verbal, before language comes into play within which we find connection, intimacy or a 'decent misunderstanding' .. ?

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The Dude

Sorry for the didactic tone:) I would say yes, but we tend to think about 'the pre-verbal' as 'infantile', belonging to an idealized phase of development and somewhat hopelessly out of reach. I like more 'below verbal', pointing (showing without naming) towards 'that which is always here' hidden under the 'discursive stream'.

At some basic level, it can be called 'context', we understand each other better if we first define the terms we are going to use and the 'rules of engagement'. That is 'still in the verbal'. At the next level there is some degree of 'intersubjective practice', built on some sufficient degree of awareness of 'the minds we have' and what usually goes wrong. It is 'verbal-adjacent' and it is still somewhat 'rule based', therefore still 'coarse'.

A 'smooth' practitioner (pun intended) would probably be someone who 'can drop below these rules adjacent to the discourse itself', truly exit the verbal, and make contact with something that I can only call now as a different state of consciousness. I think (but I might be wrong) that when Bonnitta speaks about 'reflexivity', that flow-like form of knowing it is something at the interface of smooth and coarse.

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Samuel

My experience with alexander-technique and its way to expand awareness and now with reflexive awareness is what i have closest to what you may refer here. But its interesting to find pointers to that from other frames like lacan's words that you mentioned. I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIwdc6xwm8k about "das ding" and it seems to me to point to a very similar "thing". I played publicly a bit with reflexive awareness here https://www.instagram.com/p/Cve_NDGrav5oiJ0Ii8JVeU5n4G7A1mAMyAJj5Y0/ :) Regarding the desciption, on a second thought i worried that I should have said "from" instead of "into" but than i thought its both so i left it as it is ;)

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The Dude

Aug 9, 2023

I will follow the links and get back to you!

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The Dude

Aug 9, 2023

The Instagram link does not work. Could you please send it again?

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Samuel

](https://substack.com/profile/1691121-bonnitta-roy)

Aug 13, 2023

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cve_NDGrav5oiJ0Ii8JVeU5n4G7A1mAMyAJj5Y0/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== does that one work?

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 8, 2023Author

perfect statement of the case

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Samuel

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Aug 5, 2023Liked by Bonnitta Roy

i want to say a big thank you bonni for your work. i mean you know how enriching it get be but definitely it is for me. 😊

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 5, 2023Author

Also, now you know why we take so much effort at the POP-UP School to make our language work for us in a new way. With precision, clarity AND sensitivity to how it emerges and expresses the lived body. The up-hierarchy. This is why a pdeagogy today has to start there (and not with merely meditating, because the language games people are playing with their own internal dialogue as the same problem.) Collective presencing also has the same problem -- because people are often using not-landing language, without understanding as you do now.

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Samuel

Aug 7, 2023

I think can see what you mean there. Like we need a baseline to land on that is, like you said precise and clear AND has a sensitivty to it like a bodily signature it otherwise its not landing. So the new theory of the body provides that...

I have not much experience with writting and never really been able to find joy in it (school education and stuff) but i have been dabbling into it and wanted to give this topic a shot. so here is what i wrote https://gist.github.com/namjul/f52de2d0b9ff4245a7487e8f7e436177 :)

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Samuel

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Aug 5, 2023Liked by Bonnitta Roy

excited to start to see this. probably still a glimpse but cool and starting :)

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 5, 2023Author

NOW... with this insight, it is possible (I believe) to build an AI that uses only landing-language. This would re-wire the language model (the syntax) in the human. Yes, it would hack the system, through down-ward causality, but it also might re-boot the human. This is the possibility I see and am working on. We need people who hold this insight. I love the phrase you used.

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Samuel

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Aug 7, 2023Liked by Bonnitta Roy

Found this tool https://youai.ai/mindstudio that might help.

How would you approach this? an AI that gives you options to land the text that you prompt it with? and this way generating insights through the process of hearing the give text being landed.. not sure ..

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 7, 2023Author

I am working with a team of developers who are customizing GPT4+ in ways I do not understand. Ask me a question here, and let's see what answer you get. Something that you'd liked parsed out in a "bonnie" kind of way

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Samuel

](https://substack.com/profile/1691121-bonnitta-roy)

would be cool If, hat AI can be accessed through an API, to build an nice ui around it.

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 8, 2023Author

That's what we are doing. It is expensive (have to pay for data) so we are looking at a subscription service. Working on the invitation letter now. I will post one here (probably as a note) for interested people.

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Samuel

](https://substack.com/profile/1691121-bonnitta-roy)

Aug 7, 2023

cool. hm e.g. the text of rivers tweet Here https://twitter.com/the_wilderless/status/1688275974549282816

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Bonnitta Roy

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Aug 7, 2023Author

currently offline. they must be training it

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Samuel

Aug 5, 2023

i am curious exploring this. Like using AI to make landing-language findable. i dont have much experience with AI, but buiding UI Interfaces has been the thing i have mainly done in the last years. i am currently looking for new endevors but still unsure about what.

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Samuel

](https://substack.com/profile/1691121-bonnitta-roy)

Aug 5, 2023

Like making language properties that land findable

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Bonnitta Roy

](https://substack.com/profile/1691121-bonnitta-roy)

Aug 5, 2023Author

One last (?) comment. This is why the post-modernists both have it right and are also wrong. Not-landing language is "constructed" reality. But there are other ways to use language, that are tethered to the ground.

Poor young people. Completely dazed and confused by this society gone amuck.

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Samuel